July 19 - LARGE MKWEA UPDATE

[FadedOasis]

CHANGELOG:

The server rules have been updated. The Message Of The Day has changed to reflect this. It reads as follows:

Welcome to "My Kids Won't Eat Art", an alltalk server with a friendly community.

SERVER RULES
1. Don't be annoying in either text or voice chat.
1a. Please use headphones. We don't want to hear your speakers through your mic.
2. Don't be abusive to others, and don't be a bigot.
3. Don't exploit glitches in either the game or the server.
4. Don't stack teams, even if it's just two of you.
4a. Don't abuse spectate and the auto-balancer to switch teams.
5. When alive, don't craft, trade, or sit idle. Play!
6. TF2 requires teamwork. Listen and help your team!

Rockthevote and Nominate are always enabled. /revote if you fuck up your vote.
Teams will be automatically scrambled if one team is winning by two.
Reserve slots are available for $4/month. See our forum: doiop.com/mkwea

Fastlane has been removed from map rotation. Shit kills the server as often as everyone leaving to go play Left 4 Dead. (I'm just kidding, of course. Nothing kills MKWEA more often than L4D.)


Return Of The Custom Maps From Planet X Vs The Starfighters. The following custom maps have been added to rotation:

cp_fallout (Cap all 3 points simultaneously)
cp_furnace_b4 (Gravel-Pit-style)
cp_redfort_b3 (The one with the red fort)
koth_waste (Sewage line running under the point)
koth_lighthouse (The one that is the lighthouse)
pl_borax_rc2 (one of the kinda-large payloads, looks like this)

Melee-Only restriction on Sudden Death is now disabled. Swordsmen and Spies ruin all the Punching Heavy fun. Sudden Death still happens when map time would run out and the team scores are tied.


NEW PLUGIN: Class Restrictions. I'm really fucking sick of there being 8 Spies and Snipers when there are only 12 players on the server. This is super easy to change, so I'm going to set it to what I keep recommending in chat.

sm_classrestrict_blu_snipers 1
sm_classrestrict_blu_spies 1
sm_classrestrict_red_snipers 1
sm_classrestrict_red_spies 1

Since these are so limited, I'm also adding one for Engineer:

sm_classrestrict_blu_engineers 2
sm_classrestrict_red_engineers 2

In a few days, I will up the restrictions to 2 of each Spy and Sniper, and 3 Engies. Right now, new players need to stay the fuck off of Spy until they learn the fucking maps. Again, these are super easy to change, so they can (and will) be changed soon. Important note: I'm not going to listen to your argument about how it's too strict until you actually play for one hour on MKWEA with these restrictions. If you don't have first-hand experience, you can't accurately judge how it plays.


NEW PLUGIN: Dead Chat. Valve's Alltalk system is absolutely great. Set sv_alltalk to 1 and everybody can always hear anybody else, even if they're dead. It is the best thing for voice ever. Valve's method of Allchat is ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE. Default is dead people read everything, living people read only chat from living people. Set tf_teamtalk to 1 and dead people can chat with living people on their team, but there's no way for a dead BLU player to talk to a living RED player. Shit's terrible, so we're using this plugin now.

[FadedOasis]

Forgot to mention, I haven't been able to test out Dead Chat yet, so I'll be doing that tonight.

[rhench]

I'll admit I haven't been on MKWEA much lately to know, but is the problem so widespread that it requires class limits? Lack of things like class limits is one of the reasons I like MKWEA. I personally dislike the move, even if it makes things temporarily better. Just my opinion, though.

[FadedOasis]

Yesterday, pl_upward. 18 people on the server. 10 of them were either Sniper or Spy. This lasted until Red went 4-Engies on the final point, and the cart promptly stopped moving.

Yes, the limits are necessary.

[scrambles]

I have also noticed that the way the server handles reserve slots has changed, now that the server is now always 21/22 instead of 22/22 I can't set auto join for the server, which is bothersome when I want to join when it is full.

[FadedOasis]

Cake, sudden death happens when you're on a Control Point (NOT Attack/Defend) or CTF map, the map timer ends, and both teams have won the same number of rounds. If either team has won more rounds, they win the map.

[FadedOasis]

I have also noticed that the way the server handles reserve slots has changed, now that the server is now always 21/22 instead of 22/22 I can't set auto join for the server, which is bothersome when I want to join when it is full.

I HAVE TOLD EVERYBODY IN THE WORLD TWELVE TIMES TO TELL ME IF THIS IS STILL HAPPENING. WHY AM I ONLY FINDING OUT ABOUT THIS NOW?

[FadedOasis]

Class limits are now:

sm_classrestrict_blu_snipers 2
sm_classrestrict_blu_spies 2
sm_classrestrict_red_snipers 2
sm_classrestrict_red_spies 2
sm_classrestrict_blu_engineers 3
sm_classrestrict_red_engineers 3

I'm working on a plugin that changes the limits based on the number of players on the server, so that people hopefully stop complaining when they want to go third spy on a 10 person team and to stop future complaints about how many spies is too many.

Since people don't like the way I do things, even when I check with them first, I'll ask you: What should the class limits be, and at what numbers of players on the server. If your answer is "There shouldn't be limits", then what do I do to stop server regulars from quitting when there are four spies on a team?

I will be using all of the future posts to this thread when configuring the server. If you want to be heard, YOU NEED TO POST.

[vultanphase]

Does the plugin allow any sort of temporary disabling for if we're feeling goofy? (I.E. like that time when we managed to push upwards all the way with nothing but like six snipers.)

[Heller]

For the time being, the class limits are a necessary evil. As the influx of new players tapers off to a more steady-state condition, and people get more experienced at the game, then perhaps they won't be needed. For now, though, two spies/snipers and three engineers isn't a bad compromise. With the plugin Faded's working on, the ability to dynamically change the limits will also ideally help soothe any hurt feelings.

[rhench]

As I've said in the past, I understand your dilemma with class limits. I respectfully disagree that the problem created by class limits is better than the one that it solves. People seem to prefer not being able to play the class they want to in favor of poor teamwork, so this is not unreasonable. I'm vocal about disliking it, and I may avoid the server for some time, but I respect that it is a valid option for solving the problem. I just hate having my game limited more than I hate other people being stupid, since I can't change that anyway. I can at least be a better Spy than idiots can if I can play it too.

I do apologize if my dissent has come up as disrespect for you or your decisions Faded. I make jokes all the time because I'm kind of an ass, but I do respect all the work you put in for the server and that you're doing something you think will make the server better based on the input you've received. Hopefully you know that I'm generally among the first to back you when it matters, and I can back this move even if I dislike it.

[pneuma08]

I think we as a community have to find a better way to teach newbies how to deal with sentries. But that's neither here nor there.

I don't hate class limits, so that's fine by me.

[FadedOasis]

I'm going to be swapping over to the new class limit system soon. The one where the limits change depending on the number of players on the server. The only reason I haven't yet is that nobody answered my question:

What should the class limits be, and at what numbers of players on the server?

[Heller]

I'd argue for 1 sniper/spy at 6 players or below (per team), then open up to two at 7 or above. For engies, I'd suggest 1 at 6 or fewer, 2 for 7-8 and 3 for 9+. Or maybe 1 for 4 or fewer, 2 for 5-7 and 3 for 8+. Just an initial thought, and partially just to encourage discussion.

[rhench]

While I still believe in no class limits at any range, I'd rather have input than just piss into the wind. Thus:

At 5 players per team/below, 1 sniper, 1 spy. No limits on other classes.
At 6-8, 2 snipers/ 2 spies. No limits on other classes.
At 9+, No limits.

I think even a team of 5 engineers can be beaten quite easily without 2 spies. Uber demoman should clear that shit out in no time.

[pneuma08]

Jul 28, 2011 12:58:26 GMT -5 rhench said:

I think even a team of 5 engineers can be beaten quite easily without 2 spies. Uber demoman should clear that shit out in no time.

I would have been behind this before F2P but most new people can't deal with sentries at all.

Also with >=2 engies, countering with spies becomes really difficult (sentries coordinate by default; it is much harder for spies to, especially with alltalk).

[rhench]

If I'm on a team that's stuck, even a mostly f2p team, behind a bunch of sentries, I can go demoman and do half of the work myself, even without a medic.

[pneuma08]

Jul 31, 2011 14:38:30 GMT -5 rhench said:

If I'm on a team that's stuck, even a mostly f2p team, behind a bunch of sentries, I can go demoman and do half of the work myself, even without a medic.

Yeah, it's easy to say that, but with a half-competent teammate putting pressure on you it can get pretty hard. But that's starting to get into balance issues...

Anyway, the real problem is people playing classes they really ought not to and/or paying no attention to team balance (which usually isn't a problem with experience players because even with an unbalanced team mix they tend to gravitate towards roles that need filling). Limits at least address the problem (although I do admit not very well) - if there's a better way, I'd like to hear it.

[brianblack]

Jul 31, 2011 14:38:30 GMT -5 rhench said:

If I'm on a team that's stuck, even a mostly f2p team, behind a bunch of sentries, I can go demoman and do half of the work myself, even without a medic.

That's because you don't have me on the other team airblasting stickies. Personally, I think I prefer the engy limits more than the spy/sniper limits, but it's just such a mixed bag. Engies with no support (which usually happens) get ruined pretty quickly, but get a douchebag like me as a teammate, and I can keep your sentries alive for a VERY long time. Rocket/sticky spam is pointless and ubers get wasted as they're pushed into chasms and the like.
< 5 people - 1
5-8 people - 2
> 8 people - 3
Considering the teams are limited to 10 a piece (not including reserved slots), three engies is sufficient for any kind of absurd defense.


Snipers/Spies just end up being elbows with assholes. The two are relatively interchangeable, so it would be neat if it could be a combined limit, so you could only have up to 3 spies/snipers total. Without that, I'd say
< 6 people - 1 (of each)
6+ people - 2 (of each)

Another thing I've noticed a lot is a resurgence of heavy spam. a lot of the new players seem to feel that if they're hitting a roadblock, go heavy. Since we have these class limits, we've reduced the number of viable options to remove heavies. I'm not suggesting a class limit on heavies, just commenting on the repercussions of having the spy/sniper limits.

[fivealarm]

While I recognized the need for some kind of control over F2P's that gravitate towards the OMG ONE HIT KILL classes, I feel that we should lean towards removing the limits entirely as soon as possible. They were a stop gap against the initial DELUGE of F2Ps and I hope we don't lose sight of that and make them permanent.

Some of us have years of experience. Others have played competitively. New players don't have either of these things and can't simply pick up whatever class is most needed and play it well. They would rather play whatever class they're most comfortable or practiced with. Limits will probably do nothing but annoy them. I'd rather play a few bad rounds with bad team compositions than play a few slightly better rounds with people who probably won't return to a server that limits their fun.

The thing that makes me want to play with the MKWEA crowd has always been that it's a mostly vanilla server and the people are awesome. As soon as we start placing limits on what people can and cannot do beyond "Don't be a dick." We stop being MKWEA and we're just another stupid public server with all sorts of rules that fuck with the game.

Class limits that scale with team size look like a good compromise on paper but, they're not intuitive to new players. No one is going to read about how they work if we add the info to the MOTD and they'll just be another thing we're endlessly explaining to people who are confused about it, "The limit was X last map, why is it Y now?"

[rhench]

Thank you five. Well said.

[brianblack]

I agree, I'd like to keep the limits on for as little as possible. BUT, while not being the best solution, I would argue that forcing someone to learn a class IS a way to get them to learn another class.

On the other hand, there's plenty of skilled regulars on the server that can demonstrate the effectiveness of all the classes, so just regular exposure will encourage people to try other classes. I dunno. Sucks either way in the immediate term.