Discussion of new weapons...

[FadedOasis]

...and how broken they are.

How, as a Soldier, Pyro, Engineer, or Medic am I supposed to deal with a class that can instakill me just by getting near me, especially since he has blast and fire resistances?

And if everyone agrees that facestabs are something the Spy should not do, why is rushing up to your face and instakilling you from outside your melee range acceptable?

[Billy, Angel of Wrath]

Soldier: Rocket at feet stops their charge. Shotgun is also your friend.
Pyro: Same idea. Air blast stops the charge. Shotgun/Axe will kill them.
Engie: Your sentry gun is stronger against Swordsmen than stickies by... a whole lot.
Medic: Teammates. Or side step, retreat, needle gun has worked fairly well for me.

Of course, if he catches you by surprise, you're probably dead. But thats true for spies, pyros, heavies... pretty much any class really. Even stickies are instantly fatal if you don't know they are there (and after playing against the new unlocks for a bit, I find that stickies are still my most hated weapon, and the shield is a refreshing alternative). Really, the only class that is basically screwed against swordsmen is traditional demomen. But they needed a counter anyway.
And if you are really, REALLY having trouble dealing with an enemy swordsman, stay near a friendly heavy, or anyone with a hitscan weapon who knows how to use it. It is TEAM fortress 2 after all, right

[FadedOasis]

Shotgun is also your friend.

And how exactly do you kill a Swordsman who is already charging you with at most two blasts of a shotgun?

Your sentry gun is stronger against Swordsmen than stickies by... a whole lot.

I haven't been able to upgrade a sentry in a combat location since the update, and plopping down a sentry while the Swordsman is charging at you isn't exactly a bright idea.

side step

I have never been able to sidestep out of the sword's range.

if he catches you by surprise, you're probably dead. But thats true for spies, pyros, heavies... pretty much any class really.

If a Scout, Soldier, Pyro, normal Demo, Heavy, Engie, or Medic catches you by surprise, you can still turn around and fight. If a Spy comes up behind you, you at least have a chance of hearing him and turning around to prevent the backstab. If you haven't noticed a Swordsman by the time he starts charging, you're dead, even if you turn around to face him.

It is TEAM fortress 2 after all, right

You're supposed to be using teamwork to accomplish an objective, not to kill a single enemy. And staying near teammates isn't always a good solution when you're playing a non-deathmatch mode. How am I supposed to get near a cart to stop it if three Swordsmen keep charging me?

[docsfox]

My issue with the targe is that it makes THREE MAIN weapons useless. The rocket launcher, grenade launcher, and the sticky launcher.(Yes demo has two main weapons.) Now one could argue that it's the same as the scout being useless towards sentries but there's a big difference. Sentries don't move but charging demos do.

Soldier: Rocket at feet stops their charge. Shotgun is also your friend.

Maybe but by the time you can react to a charge the demo is too close and you will receive self damage from your own rocket which is MORE damage than the demo would get. We're talking 50-100 damage to the soldier while the demo would get 30-50 damage FROM A DIRECT HIT. Don't know about you but that feels like a win for the demo. Why not charge that soldier head on when you're gonna either kill him if he misses or still deal more damage to him if he hits?

As for using the shotgun, it takes 2-3 good hits to kill a demo with it and if he has a medic, forget it and just run away because then it would take 4-6 shots and by the time you can fire that many shots the demo will have killed you. The shotgun is still better but it just isn't enough in many situations.


My best results on soldier vs targe-demo has been to use the equalizer and that turns it into a 50/50 battle IF the demo doesn't switch to his grenade launcher. (If he did then I would likely die.) Reducing a soldier to a melee weapon is retarded.

[Billy, Angel of Wrath]

Dec 23, 2009 23:48:51 GMT -5 FadedOasis said:

Shotgun is also your friend.

And how exactly do you kill a Swordsman who is already charging you with at most two blasts of a shotgun?

Rocket at feet, pop him up, finish with shot gun. -I do understand the difficultly in this matchup, but it's a matchup that is supposed to favor the Swordsman by design. It takes a little bit of practice; but I know, for me personally, Soldier vs Swordsman has stopped feeling like the hopeless fight it did the day of the update.

I haven't been able to upgrade a sentry in a combat location since the update, and plopping down a sentry while the Swordsman is charging at you isn't exactly a bright idea.

Lol. It was the Demo and Soldier update! Engineer is going to be difficult for a while. How do you think Spies felt around the Pyro update?
And are you honestly trying to say that the shield is somehow a bigger threat to sentries and Engineers than the stickie launcher?

I have never been able to sidestep out of the sword's range.

To have any chance, you really need to move as soon as you hear the scream. -Which is of course more of a chance than you have against... snipers, or well placed stickie traps. And really, if you are playing medic, you should be both alert and with teammates.

If a Scout, Soldier, Pyro, normal Demo, Heavy, Engie, or Medic catches you by surprise, you can still turn around and fight. If a Spy comes up behind you, you at least have a chance of hearing him and turning around to prevent the backstab. If you haven't noticed a Swordsman by the time he starts charging, you're dead, even if you turn around to face him.

If you want, I'll gladly run a test with you one day when the server is empty. You stand, facing a wall, and let me surprise attack you, at which point you may "turn around and fight." I don't think you'll have as much of a chance as you're imagining. Why?
-If it is a FaN Scout or Heavy ambushing, you'll be dead before you realize you've been shot. If it's a Soldier, you'll be helplessly tossed into the air. Against a pyro, you may get a chance to turn, but you are certainly going to die. And being surprised by a normal demoman means walking through the wrong door or around the wrong corner and being exploded by stickies, where you actually have absolutely no chance at all.

You're supposed to be using teamwork to accomplish an objective, not to kill a single enemy.

And it doesn't take a whole team to kill a single Swordsman- you need just one Heavy to murder him, or one alert Pyro to air blast him, or one good Soldier to juggle him, or one nearby Sniper to hit the guy moving in a predictable straight line. Sure, some match ups are harder to win than others, but that's why you have teammates of other classes. Of course, if your whole team is composed of new players using explosive classes (for example, after a free weekend and dual class update) you may find swordsmen doing quite well. But they aren't unstoppable, by any means.

And staying near teammates isn't always a good solution when you're playing a non-deathmatch mode. How am I supposed to get near a cart to stop it if three Swordsmen keep charging me?

Well, you can't by yourself, but that is true regardless of what class those 3 enemies are playing. I suggest using an equal number of teammates, ideally including Heavies (Using Natascha is even better).

Dec 24, 2009 2:13:17 GMT -5 docsfox said:

My issue with the targe is that it makes THREE MAIN weapons useless. The rocket launcher, grenade launcher, and the sticky launcher.(Yes demo has two main weapons.) Now one could argue that it's the same as the scout being useless towards sentries but there's a big difference. Sentries don't move but charging demos do.

3 weapons, but only 2 classes, one of which has an alternative gun.

Maybe but by the time you can react to a charge the demo is too close and you will receive self damage from your own rocket which is MORE damage than the demo would get. We're talking 50-100 damage to the soldier while the demo would get 30-50 damage FROM A DIRECT HIT. Don't know about you but that feels like a win for the demo. Why not charge that soldier head on when you're gonna either kill him if he misses or still deal more damage to him if he hits?

When there is that little reaction time, the demo isn't getting a full crit charge. For those longer charges, I've found ample time to safely use rockets.

As for using the shotgun, it takes 2-3 good hits to kill a demo with it and if he has a medic, forget it and just run away because then it would take 4-6 shots and by the time you can fire that many shots the demo will have killed you. The shotgun is still better but it just isn't enough in many situations.

If he has a medic, you're facing 2 enemies alone. You might want to get your own teammate in that situation, perhaps one to kill the medic, or who is better equipped to handle the demo?

My best results on soldier vs targe-demo has been to use the equalizer and that turns it into a 50/50 battle IF the demo doesn't switch to his grenade launcher. (If he did then I would likely die.) Reducing a soldier to a melee weapon is retarded.

The Pick is an excellent choice. And if the demo switches to nades, switch to shotgun.

And again, this is supposed to be a difficult match up that favors the swordsman. The Soldier has trouble, but also has options and hope. That is exactly right.

[.: sora]

Natasha heavies tear through targe demos. Again, shotties and other non-explosives tear through them, especially since they start at 150. Targe demos also have to give up the sticky launcher: no small drawback. They give up a lot in terms of mobility, and they possess absolutely no area denial. I've tested it, and charing to mid doesn't even come close to sticky-jumping. That said, mobility doesn't matter as much in casual play, and having 50%+ direct resists against a third of the classes is a bit silly. IMHO, this damage reduction makes them a bit OP'd in pubs, but the lack of mobility makes it a joke in comp.

My bigger gripe is with the DH. Now, I'm a bad soldier. Like, if someone asked me to soldier in a PUG, I will usually tell you no, because you may as well be playing 5v6. But this weapon lets me top-frag. And combined with the Equalizer, I don't even have to RJ to mid. You might say something about different playstyles and all that, but if I can "air-shot" a Scout from across the map for 135 (mini-crits negate damage fall-off), something needs to be toned down a bit.

[rhench]

And the DH not only can 1-shot most classes (spy, sniper, medic, engi, scout) at mid range with the top end of damage spread, but it can crit normally, it gets those air mini's, and it can 2-shot a sentry. That's obscene.

And the equalizer lets a solly run nigh as fast as a scout. Also obscene.

[pneuma08]

But scouts will have 5x the health, and ranged weapons, and will still die.

The flamethrower also does surprisingly well against a targe demo if you can keep it trained on them, given the fire resistance, and rockets can pop up even a charge if you can pull it off. But really, bullets shine best against them, and try to pick your battles if you're an explodey-class.

Oh, and the sword doesn't do as much damage as it would seem. See how many swings it takes to kill a Heavy at full health.

As for the DH, I have a feeling comp players will eat it up, since precision damage is what shapes the battlefield more than anything.

[Jeziah]

Pyro vs Targe: SUPER DUPER EASY, airblast and flame him a bit while he's in the air then as he comes down axtinguish him. Eyelander only gets crits on a charge, and pyro is faster than any but a many-heads demo (plus you can easily get in position before he lands) and axtinguisher will always 1-hit a nonbuffed demoman while noncrit targe won't one-hit a pyro, so you ALWAYS WIN. Never fails
Oh, and if you are afraid you won't be able to blast, flame, switch and axtinguish fast enough, you can light 'im up with the flaregun from a comfortable range and save time on the flameing part, but this is only really considerable if you are hurt and don't think you can take the chance of a well-aimed swing while you line up the axtinguish.

There is an incredible amount I can say on the game balance of the Targe, but you would never read the ludicrous wall-o'-text anyways. Besides, what we REALLY need to discuss is what to do about the damned Direct Hit. That weapon is EXTREMELY overpowered.


Pneuma: "But scouts will have 5x the health, and ranged weapons, and will still die."
Not so much. The key to the Targe is stopping the Charge, so if the scout can get behind something (easy) or blast the chargin' demo with the FaN (easiER), the scout can go about controlling the range of combat from then on and will kick the demo's butt every time.

[pneuma08]

Topic continuity fail!

And the equalizer lets a solly run nigh as fast as a scout. Also obscene.

But scouts will have 5x the health, and ranged weapons, and will still die.

[Jeziah]

Oh. Oops
My bad.
BTW, the actual numbers are:
Soldier at =/<40 hp- 384 speed
Scout- 400 speed

The solly weapons were NOT thought out as well as the Demo ones.

[brianblack]

I agree. The soldier's weapons are far more unbalanced than the demo's charge. I appreciate the targe, as it brings less conventional classes back into favor, if only to counteract the swordsman demo. I promise, 75% of the time, a swordsman demo dies to me as a pyro. The other 25% are when someone is attacking from an unexpected direction and gets the full crit on me. In that case, I deserve to die, same as a spy getting advantage, or me airblasting you into a corner and axing you.

I much less appreciate burning a soldier to an inch of his life and him turning around and one shotting me. I find that to be completely ridiculous. Remove random crits, and reduce the damage and speed boosts to be a bit less absurd.

Really, the DH is fair, brutal for people who know how to use it, and unbelievably awesome to reflect in their faces. I'd take the air mini-crits, as it really doesn't need them. The extra damage also should not affect sentries, as two shots isn't nearly enough time to save the thing if you're doing ANYTHING other than beat on your sentry.

[pneuma08]

IMO, they should just remove random crits from the DH, just have it rely on more damage and air minis, or kriegs. This would also give it better flavor synergy with the buff banner. Although a regular rocket solly may be the better choice for kriegs for the additional critical splash, but then again maybe not.

But meh. I'll deal no matter which way.

[.: sora]

Dec 24, 2009 5:55:36 GMT -5 pneuma08 said:

Oh, and the sword doesn't do as much damage as it would seem. See how many swings it takes to kill a Heavy at full health.

Same damage as a bottle. What makes it more dangerous (without heads) is the increased reach.

[brianblack]

Dec 29, 2009 10:53:08 GMT -5 .: sora said:

Same damage as a bottle. What makes it more dangerous (without heads) is the increased reach.

Which I really haven't noticed. It's a shame that you can only hit one person at a time with it...

[pneuma08]

You notice if you're in melee with them. >:

Or more specifically, trying to get OUT Of melee with them.