rhench
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Post by rhench on Jun 15, 2009 23:38:47 GMT -5
So, normally the titles of the blog updates reveal... something. It's not always the case, but the titles frequently portend one thing or another. Now, the quote from the most recent update, www.teamfortress.com/ seems to suggest that they may be doing the Demoman update next. Any thoughts on this? I suppose it could be simply that they want potential mapmakers to get 'em (maps), but I recall the one before the Engi/Spy update (where teleporters got upgrades and spy got metal refills for his base cloak) doing something similar. Or maybe it was that one itself, I don't remember. /baseless_speculation
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Whatsit
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Post by Whatsit on Jun 16, 2009 2:05:30 GMT -5
Demoman would be the logical choice for next update. It currently has a very steep learning curve, and in some circumstances is kind of limited in options. Soldier is still super-versatile and the engineer would require a lot of artwork for any update that involves changed or additional buildings. They probably have their artist (part-time, I suspect, haven't seen much new in the way of Valve maps lately) working away at custom animations and whatever is next in the collectibles sideshow.
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Post by scrambles on Jun 16, 2009 12:39:39 GMT -5
Yea, I bet demoman is next, and Engie is Last. The Engie already got a mini-update when dispensers & teles got upgraded, (that was so great). Demo really needs some upgrades... <speculation> What would be good demo upgrades? I'd wager a gamble that the liquor won't get replaced, much like the sniper. instead opting for two replacements for the sticky or nade launcher. For the sticky launcher, I'm gonna go C4 detonation pack: you can't throw it, it gets set up by sticking it to a wall or floor, and is remote detonated. And since C4 in inert shooting it won't do anything. It would do more damage than the sticky gun. It's a one shot thing though, like jarate (That's true btw C4 won't go off without an electrical charge) Hmm, I'm thinking some kind of armor that reduces your own detonation damage, like a Kevlar cup or something hilarious like that, I suppose that would replace your nade launcher so you would need your sticky gun. Incendiary rounds for the nade launcher, they would do like half the damage, but light people on fire. </speculation> What do you all think?
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rhench
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Post by rhench on Jun 16, 2009 17:39:57 GMT -5
I don't expect that they're going to give damage over time to anyone but pyro. It's his thing. Give it to others and Pyro loses a little luster. I'm betting on something no one expects (like the Amplify-damage-urine) for one unlock, something like the C4 you mentioned, and sadly, a shotgun or SMG. I don't want it, but it's a simple way to make the demoman's skill floor a little lower: give him a CQC weapon.
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Post by carbad on Jun 16, 2009 19:10:22 GMT -5
he should have a weapon that blows up the entire map forever. like, if the server tried to load that map again, it's just a big crater.
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Whatsit
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Post by Whatsit on Jun 16, 2009 20:00:34 GMT -5
(Abbreviated) Yea, I bet demoman is next, and Engie is Last. What would be good demo upgrades? Incendiary rounds for the nade launcher, they would do like half the damage, but light people on fire. Actually I think Soldier will be the last upgrade -- Like I said, I think he's by far the most versatile class, and the most recent updates have focused on versatility. As far as the incendiary 'nades go, I doubt any class other than pyro will get fire damage of any kind. Which is a pity cos one of my ideas for unlockables is... - Scotch Molotov
- Replaces the bottle
- Fire to swing, alt-fire to throw. Recharges over time.
- No melee crits, and use fists at 50% damage reduction while Scotch Molotov recharges.
- Thrown weapon: breaks on impact, sets a smallish area on fire. Area fire can be put out with Jarate or compression blast.
- Bonus taunt: Demo takes a swig from the bottle, holds up a lighter and belches a fireball, killing an enemy immediately in front.
Other ideas include... - Proximity Mine
- Replaces sticky mines
- Carry capacity of 3. Placement maximum of 3.
- Each mine does the same damage as a sticky.
- Takes 1 second to arm while standing still, then thrown a short distance (approx distance is same as uncharged sticky) to stick to any surface that can support stickies.
- Soft audio cue to warn attentive enemies of their presence.
- Explodes approx. 1 second after an enemy comes into explosive range.
- Jarate causes them to short-circuit, disabling friend-or-foe identification, and changing the visual and audio cues to give players a decent chance of preempting them.
- Does not react to cloaked spies. Does not react to disguised spies except when short-circuiting.
Intended to give newbie demos some area-denial utility without requiring their full attention. As they get more skilled, they can transition to stickies, though prox mines would still have their place in remote setups. For example, protecting teleporter entrances without committing a whole sentry gun. Could also be used as a rear guard for a lone demo wanting to lob grenades on the battlefield from the sidelines.
- Explosive Drone
- Replaces sticky mines.
- Smallish drone/robot about the size of a medium ammo box.
- Carry capacity of one, and can only replenished by large ammo boxes, resupply cabinets and level 3 dispensers.
- When used, demoman loses control of himself but controls the drone instead.
- Drone may walk forward, back, left, right, but not jump.
- Drone can walk on walls and ceiling.
- Left-click to detach from wall or ceiling, right-click to explode.
- Drone's explosion is powerful enough to destroy a level 3 sentry if the drone is touching it when it explodes. Level 3 sentry survives in all other instances.
- Drone has a small light and beeps to alert enemies to its presence, but the sound should be hard to distinguish over the beeping of a sentry.
- Drone is destroyed if shot by bullets, and displaced by explosions and compression blast. (same as stickies)
- A demoman controlling a drone still gets damage indicators when attacked, but cannot see health.
- Drone is destroyed (without exploding) if the demoman is killed.
- The speed of the drone would have to be tweaked in response to play-testing.
The drone is intended as a counter to excessive turtling. It gives the demoman a means to attack sentries and other more-or-less stationary targets (snipers, sometimes medics, heavies & demomen) without exposing himself to the front-line conflict. Currently, a decent defensive team can completely thwart a demoman's attempts to kill a sentry, and with compression blast and the sandman, sometimes even an uber is insufficient. The explosive drone lets the demoman stay out of the way, but still allows him to seriously threaten sentries and snipers if he's skilled enough. Alert teams should be able to easily spot the drone if encountered far from the main battlefield, but there should be plenty of opportunity to deploy near the front lines. Being able to walk on walls and the ceiling mean that the defenders have to be aware of one more potential attack vector. Also, combined with its inability to jump, it should reduce the defensive power of some popular sentry gun locations while improving other locations (since the demoman loses his stickies to take the drone.) It also addresses a problem where demomen can wind up just watching an open doorway and killing anyone who walks through. Taking the drone opens up a few more ways to contribute to the team effort.
- Scottish Pudding
- Replaces the grenade launcher
- 300% longer load time
- -75% clip capacity (i.e. one shot)
- Lobs a large projectile which explodes on impact (players and environment) for minor damage.
- Explosion scatters 8 smaller bomblets, which explode after about 2 seconds for minor damage.
Intended to provide cover for a retreating demoman, without providing significant offensive capability. Should deter the enemy from advancing while the demoman retreats.
Well that turned out to be way longer than I intended, I just kept having ideas. To anyone silly enough to actually read all that, I'm not sure whether to thank you or pity you :P tldr version; More bombs! Kaboom!
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rhench
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Post by rhench on Jun 16, 2009 23:08:16 GMT -5
The drone sounds more like the Engineer's flavor to me, plus the walk on walls thing might not be good for some maps, depending on brush settings and other things that I don't understand. The pudding as a one shot item seems a bit weak, but then so is Jarate, and it doesn't do any damage. And the prox mines just seem overall weaker than the stickies if they are so limited in terms of both supply and placement but no no more damage whatsoever. Good thoughts, though.
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Whatsit
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Post by Whatsit on Jun 17, 2009 1:25:40 GMT -5
The drone sounds more like the Engineer's flavor to me, plus the walk on walls thing might not be good for some maps, depending on brush settings and other things that I don't understand. The pudding as a one shot item seems a bit weak, but then so is Jarate, and it doesn't do any damage. And the prox mines just seem overall weaker than the stickies if they are so limited in terms of both supply and placement but no no more damage whatsoever. Good thoughts, though. I was going for a bomb disposal robot sort of theme but, you know, it explodes instead. And yeah I admit the wall thing probably wouldn't work on any map with any sections of sky, but I couldn't think of any other way of letting it get past the defenses it's meant to break. Gyrocopter maybe? That's definitely getting into engineer territory. Oh, and the engineer will never get a toy like that -- a sentry gun AND a low-risk offensive tool? Not going to happen. The damage of the pudding bomblets is 'minor' cos I originally imagined, say, 20-30 of the things. Really carpet a hallway with them. Then I realised that there are probably technical problems with that. The idea isn't to shoot it AT someone but to shoot it at the wall or floor as you turn tail and run, and use the bomblets as a means to delay the enemy rather than kill them (unless they're stupid enough to follow). In the meantime your options are myriad: keep running, plant stickies, plant prox mines, call for help, reload the pudding launcher... The prox mines are supposed to be weaker than stickies, that's the whole point. You trade in some of the instant-kill nature of the stickies for the convenience of not having to babysit them. You don't get to use them offensively, but that's quite a ways up the learning curve anyway. I guess I didn't make it too clear; the weapon concepts I'm suggesting are to address the problems I can see with the demo; Steep learning curve: Prox mines Poor escape prospects: Scottish Pudding Easily countered defense buster: Explosive Drone The actual numbers can be easily tweaked as testing dictates.
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dbone
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Post by dbone on Jun 17, 2009 12:40:47 GMT -5
For the defense buster, I would like to see something that encourages the demo to use his existing skills but gives him an advantage with it.
Such as an upgrade to his bottle that has some powerful liquor in there. After drinking, it makes him invulnerable to compression blast, scout stun and scout knock-back for 10 seconds. One use per life, turns into standard melee when empty.
Possibly you could add that if a medic uber charges him, they both receive the effect.
When the effect wears off, demo man speed is reduced by some % for 10 seconds.
Thoughts?
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Post by scrambles on Jun 17, 2009 16:04:56 GMT -5
It would be better (and more funny) if the demo was very hard to control after the effect, staggering around and his vison all drunk-vision.
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Whatsit
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Post by Whatsit on Jun 17, 2009 17:52:25 GMT -5
For the defense buster, I would like to see something that encourages the demo to use his existing skills but gives him an advantage with it. Such as an upgrade to his bottle that has some powerful liquor in there. After drinking, it makes him invulnerable to compression blast, scout stun and scout knock-back for 10 seconds. One use per life, turns into standard melee when empty. Possibly you could add that if a medic uber charges him, they both receive the effect. When the effect wears off, demo man speed is reduced by some % for 10 seconds. Thoughts? I like it! A much simpler approach than my convoluted idea, and still achieves the goal. Make it 'immunity to all knockback, stun and slow effects' to also ignore the sentry knockback (big problem when there's more than one) and you've got a winner.
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atlas
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Post by atlas on Jun 20, 2009 11:55:16 GMT -5
In the early TF2 movies they showed the demoman with a bundle of dynamite that he would swing around and then toss. I could see them easily re-introducing that! Another thought would be the old demo-charges from TFC, the demo could set a 20 second fused Democharge that would blow a hole in target walls and grates, making new ways into bases. This could lead to a whole new level of both tactics and maps.
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Post by scrambles on Jun 23, 2009 16:32:18 GMT -5
I think blowing holes in the walls would just cause chaos for the developers, I mean there is nothing behind those walls but empty space. I like the dynamite idea, it would be a one-shot thing but do hella-damage.
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dbone
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Post by dbone on Jun 23, 2009 16:46:38 GMT -5
How does everyone feel about the old school laser trip mines? Not sure it fits the character of the demoman but I wonder how well they would work in the new TF2 world...
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rhench
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Post by rhench on Jun 23, 2009 17:45:30 GMT -5
Eh, the old ones from Duke exploded on the wall, which meant passing them anywhere but right next to the wall was no damage anyway. Proximity mines work better, as they don't trip when someone passes directly past it but a mile away.
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Post by Edison W. on Jun 23, 2009 19:07:47 GMT -5
I think blowing holes in the walls would just cause chaos for the developers, I mean there is nothing behind those walls but empty space. Depends how the designers put the level together. TF2 isn't really made for dynamic destruction though; any destructible objects are predetermined by the level designer. Since Demo is pretty much my #1, I really hope he's up next. The problem is I'm not really sure what they'd give him, since his weapons are already fairly versatile as it is (for those with lots of practice, at least). The only weapon I've come up with is a Proximity Mine launcher that replaces the Sticky Launcher. They would still stick to things, but would do less damage and only be able to explode after they've sat still for a moment. And instead of detonating them, Alt-fire would let them release from their sticking point; good for raining hidden death from those high ceiling areas and such. But after Jarate, who knows what strange things they might give him.
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Post by thechurch on Jul 6, 2009 16:08:52 GMT -5
i like the idea of the original dinomite but to make it more like a one shot thing that requires detonation, like a satchel charge.
also, a heavier explosive launcher to replace the grenade launcher. small amo capacity but high splash damage.
as for something to drasticaly change the play style: explode on impact low gauge slugs fired from 6 shot pump shotgun. low gamage, same relode as other shotguns, small explosion, acuracy similar to n.g. pistol, no arc. however this may make demo too forward attack/defend oriented, making an ambush class more like a defensive line breaker.
i want to hear your openions.
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Post by pneuma08 on Jul 6, 2009 17:55:34 GMT -5
Eh, the old ones from Duke exploded on the wall, which meant passing them anywhere but right next to the wall was no damage anyway. Proximity mines work better, as they don't trip when someone passes directly past it but a mile away. The trip mines from HL1 were pretty deadly, although you can only place them if there was another wall (or floor-ceiling) not too far away from the one you placed it on, which would mean on some maps it's not very friendly.
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Post by thechurch on Jul 9, 2009 23:46:43 GMT -5
smoke bomb?
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Whatsit
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Post by Whatsit on Jul 11, 2009 1:59:33 GMT -5
Hey that'd be cool, especially if sentries couldn't see through it.
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Post by Mad Jack (cervantes) on Dec 10, 2009 16:26:08 GMT -5
Smoke bomb for sure. I think that would would work great for breaking turtling sentries. Basically it would do no damage so it wouldn't one shot the engi and sentry, but it would make the sentry considerably less useful.
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